Metagame np: Stage 6: Begin Again

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Before I start worrying about being tour-scoutable again, I wanted to share my favorite Virizion set.

:bw/virizion:
THE QUEEN (Virizion) @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Justified
Tera Type: Rock
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Stone Edge
- Leaf Storm
- Synthesis
- Sacred Sword
252 Atk Virizion Leaf Blade vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 115-136 (33.7 - 39.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

0- SpA Virizion Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 115-136 (33.7 - 39.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
4- SpA Virizion Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 117-138 (34.3 - 40.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
(I'm including both of those because the 4 evs made more of a difference than I expected, even tho it's 2 damage)

4 SpA Virizion Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 129-153 (37.8 - 44.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

(and mew is used because it has the same def and spd stats, making it useful for showing difference in raw damage)
Virizion is such a versatile pokemon, and with equal attacking stats it's a perfect candidate for a mixed attacker. A -SpA Leaf Storm does the same amount of damage as a max attack Leaf Blade (see calcs) (or trust me bro), which means there is no downside damage-wise to using Leaf Storm on non-SD sets. I personally find Stone Edge essential because I miss Talonflame PU meta and like to destroy fire types, and sacred sword is good against iron defense mons and doesn't compromise longevity like cc.

The best part of this set, however, is the surprise factor. There is nothing better than an opponent bringing in a Charizard on a Virizion that just used Leaf Storm, only for it to die to stone edge. It's even better for an opponent to bring in something they expect to take a leaf blade like Regirock or Sandaconda, only for it to die to leaf storm.

With that, I do think Virizion may need a suspect test down the line. It's physical and special sets have different counters (due to physical having stone edge for fire/flying and special having air slash for grass), and then something like my set can really punish someone playing the guessing game. I do mostly play on ladder so take this next point with a grain of salt, but the set I use is a very strong cleaner that often has little to no defensive counterplay. This is the same ladder that helps me forget Wo-Chien is in the tier, so this could be just people not knowing how to counter Virizion in the builder. It's not too hard to counter offensively, however, and it still has only base 90 attacking stats. Virizion is far from quickban worthy, but I think it should be watched.


Also, here's some Dipplin appreciation!
:sv/dipplin:
Immortality (Dipplin) @ Eviolite
Ability: Sticky Hold
Shiny: Yes
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Impish Nature
- Dragon Tail
- Recover
- Sucker Punch
- Bullet Seed/Seed Bomb

I've had fun pretending I can build stall recently (I can't), and Dipplin is a key factor behind that. It has a defense stat of 525 with evio, dragon tail, and recover. It's small movepool sucks, but Sucker Punch is nice utility if a weakened ghost type is trying to pick off your Dipplin and worth running. Dragon tail is annoying to go against, since most physical attackers have no chance of OHKOing Dipplin without setup, and Dipplin can survive more special hits than Avalugg in a pinch. Tera Steel is there to resist ice, fairy, dragon, psychic, and U-turn, which are types Dipplin struggles with normally. It's important not to tera if there is a fighting-type on your opponent's team unless you need to, because suddenly your physical wall is taking 50% from an attack (maybe 50 idk). That aside, is easier than you'd think to wall a team with Dipplin, although you do need hazards, knock, toxic, and/or other support to make spamming dragon tail progress the game. Also, bullet seed and seed bomb are there to make sure your valuable grass type hits what grass hits offensively.
 
PU TO NU
Emboar moved from PUBL to NU
Registeel moved from PU to NU
Vileplume moved from PU to NU

NU TO PU
Toxicroak moved from NU to PUBL
Articuno-Galar moved from NU to PU
Bruxish moved from NU to PU
Hoopa moved from NU to PU
Lapras moved from NU to PU
Meganium moved from NU to PU
Ninetales moved from NU to PU
Oricorio-Pom-Pom moved from NU to PU
Regigigas moved from NU to PU
Rhydon moved from NU to PU
Sandslash moved from NU to PU
Scyther moved from NU to PU
Snorlax moved from NU to PU
Tauros-Paldea-Blaze moved from NU to PU
Toedscruel moved from NU to PU
Tornadus moved from NU to PU
Zoroark moved from NU to PU

PU TO ZU
Appletun moved from PU to ZU
Articuno moved from PU to ZU
Avalugg-Hisui moved from PU to ZU
Basculin moved from PU to ZU
Bellossom moved from PU to ZU
Crabominable moved from PU to ZU
Cryogonal moved from PU to ZU
Dewgong moved from PU to ZU
Eelektross moved from PU to ZU
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Glaceon moved from PU to ZU
Granbull moved from PU to ZU
Gurdurr moved from PU to ZU
Komala moved from PU to ZU
Lilligant moved from PU to ZU
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Magneton moved from PU to ZU
Medicham moved from PU to ZU
Meowstic moved from PU to ZU
Minun moved from PU to ZU
Oricorio-Pa'u moved from PU to ZU
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Piloswine moved from PU to ZU
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PU TO NU
Emboar moved from PUBL to NU
Registeel moved from PU to NU
Vileplume moved from PU to NU

NU TO PU
Toxicroak moved from NU to PUBL
Articuno-Galar moved from NU to PU
Bruxish moved from NU to PU
Hoopa moved from NU to PU
Lapras moved from NU to PU
Meganium moved from NU to PU
Ninetales moved from NU to PU
Oricorio-Pom-Pom moved from NU to PU
Regigigas moved from NU to PU
Rhydon moved from NU to PU
Sandslash moved from NU to PU
Scyther moved from NU to PU
Snorlax moved from NU to PU
Tauros-Paldea-Blaze moved from NU to PU
Toedscruel moved from NU to PU
Tornadus moved from NU to PU
Zoroark moved from NU to PU

PU TO ZU
Appletun moved from PU to ZU
Articuno moved from PU to ZU
Avalugg-Hisui moved from PU to ZU
Basculin moved from PU to ZU
Bellossom moved from PU to ZU
Crabominable moved from PU to ZU
Cryogonal moved from PU to ZU
Dewgong moved from PU to ZU
Eelektross moved from PU to ZU
Exeggutor moved from PU to ZU
Glaceon moved from PU to ZU
Granbull moved from PU to ZU
Gurdurr moved from PU to ZU
Komala moved from PU to ZU
Lilligant moved from PU to ZU
Lurantis moved from PU to ZU
Magneton moved from PU to ZU
Medicham moved from PU to ZU
Meowstic moved from PU to ZU
Minun moved from PU to ZU
Oricorio-Pa'u moved from PU to ZU
Orthworm moved from PU to ZU
Persian-Alola moved from PU to ZU
Piloswine moved from PU to ZU
Plusle moved from PU to ZU
Probopass moved from PU to ZU
Pyroar moved from PU to ZU
Raichu-Alola moved from PU to ZU
Regice moved from PU to ZU
Samurott moved from PU to ZU
Shaymin moved from PU to ZU
Shiftry moved from PU to ZU
Spiritomb moved from PU to ZU
Swanna moved from PU to ZU
Toucannon moved from PU to ZU
Veluza moved from PU to ZU
Vivillon moved from PU to ZU
Zebstrika moved from PU to ZU

View attachment 600166
From the GSC king to PU.
 
:snorlax:
Who let my man in here. Very very broken, curse sets with tera poison or fairy just like, win? I guess we are kinda prepared for that sorta stuff with like encore stuff but this seems super broken and restricting.

:oricorio-pom-pom:
Baile and sensu were broken last month so surprise surprise the better oricorio is also broken. Don't really need to justify this one

:tornadus:
Creeps the base 110s by one point and has 125spa and nasty plot. Broken

:tauros-paldea-blaze:
Emboar but with less power and better speed. Still has no switchins even with that reduced power.

:ninetales:
Here comes the sun. Sun is now broken with this but can we ban heat rock and not this because ninetales seems cute by itself.

:zoroark:
Probably just too strong and fast for the meta on top of illusion mindgames, even if its super frail and not quite as strong as it looks because dark pulse sucks.

:articuno-galar:
Just kinda seems like a better hraviary, its not quite 1-1 because no tinted lens and needs a dedicated speedboosting move separate from its attacking moves but its close enough.

:hoopa:
Now this is interesting, 150spa is absurd but its got mediore speed a terrible typing and bad bulk. This could be broken but could also just be another medicham situation.

:toxicroak:
So this is 100% getting freed and its really cool. The stats are super awkward but the typing movepool and ability are all fantastic. Can run both physical and special sets, has prio to get around the mid speed and the ability + typing helps compensate for poor bulk. Super cool mon.

:sandslash:
Its been so long. More hazard removal is great, the role compression offered by slash makes it super splashable.

:scyther:
Top tier pivot with good offensive stats and defog and a super scary swords dancer, great mon.

:rhydon:
Gonna struggle more in such a grass dominated metagame but at the same time its such a beefcake and stab edgequake off 130 attack is so scary even with bronzong and virizion in the tier so it'll probably find a place.

:toedscruel:
Kinda weird? Spin is cool and so is the rest of the movepool and the special bulk is good but the ability is strictly bad outside of like, vs sun cuz hattrem and the typing is super awkward. Probably has a niche but really jank.

:Bruxish:
Amazing breaker and scarfer with good attack and 2 120bp stabs and decent coverage. Its time for the return of cacturne (or just run wo-chien)

:lapras:
Really annoying for floatzel I guess? Otherwise just bad

:Regigigas:
Everybody point and laugh

:meganium:
The movepool buffs aren't even close to enough to let it compete with the million other grasses in the tier. Maybe if it kept aromatherapy but nah. Bulky sets are outdone by wo-chien or even mf dipplin and swords dance is way outdone by virizion.
 
:sv/regirock:

I did want to highlight this guy a little more because the biggest hurdle to using Regirock in January was Registeel being right there. Since that's no longer the case, it is time for the Regirock dominance era. Compared to Rhydon, Sandslash, and conda, the pile of rocks has better defensive stats. It has 80/200/100 bulk, making it the most specially bulky rock type (+ conda) we have. On top of that, 200 defense is insane. I mean, look at this:

252+ Atk Choice Band Floatzel Wave Crash vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Regirock: 242-288 (66.4 - 79.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

The EVs come from the gen 8 analysis, which appear to be chosen to avoid 2HKOs from cb aggron with the rest in spdef. If I wasn't so busy spamming qd on ladder for the rest of the day I would recommend a benchmark for a mon actually in the tier, but there is nothing blatantly wrong with this EV spread so I keep using it.
 

asa

is a Site Content Manageris a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Top Contributoris a Social Media Contributor Alumnus
PU Leader
Haven't played too many games yet, but here's my thoughts on some of the new Pokemon we got. Grouping certain ones together to save time.

Definitely quickban worthy: :articuno-galar::ninetales::oricorio-pom-pom::oricorio-sensu::zoroark:

Galarian Articuno's bulk is just good enough to make cleanly revenge killing double dance sets really hard, and it doesn't struggle with setting up at all despite what its awkward defensive typing suggests. Tera only makes it more annoying by basically turning off a lot of ways to deal with it (Electric blocks TWave and lets you boost on Tornadus, Fighting deals with Sucker Punch + lets you more quickly break Snorlax w/ Tera Blast, even others like Steel are probably good for additional defensive properties), and it doesn't even need Tera Blast all the time when Stored Power + Air Slash is fine enough coverage. Sun was already controversial when the only auto-setter was Vulpix, but now we have Ninetales, who has real numbers and isn't a literal LC. Personally I still don't hate sun as much as others seem to, but I don't think Ninetales sun is worth bending over backwards to keep around. Both Pom-Pom and Sensu are stupid and pick their own counterplay. Pom-Pom is definitely less healthy because of its amazing defensive typing giving it more chances to boost on Pokemon like Tornadus, Bronzong, and Wo-Chien, but its place will likely be taken by Sensu if we ban it alone. Zoroark forces sometimes heavily punishing mindgames and, even on its own, lacks much counterplay due to its versatility. Even basic sets can tech on something like Psychic or Encore once they're found out to avoid being exploited, and it'll almost always do something because of how many good Pokemon it can larp as (even ignoring obvious ones like Toxicroak).

Not 100% sold on these being broken: :tauros-paldea-blaze::tornadus::snorlax:

Tauros-F seems like one of those Pokemon that's more dangerous in the builder than in-game. I wasn't a fan of Emboar at all and thought this would just be Emboar 2.0, but the bull is noticeably weaker than the pig and also lacks Drain Punch, both of which are huge downsides. Still, being faster than Emboar while also having Intimidate is messed up, and Fauros doesn't necessarily have hard counters either way. Likely going to err on the side of caution and vote ban on it. Tornadus and Snorlax feel more manageable, though. Like yeah, they're stat sticks, but I don't think either is bad enough yet to warrant a quickban. Tornadus's below-average bulk and unreliable attacking moves lower its consistency, and it feels like we have plenty of suitable revenge killers and tanky beefcakes to keep it in line. As for Snorlax, I don't think it's doing anything that unique. Counterplay to other bulky setup sweepers like Registeel still works for Snorlax, and it offers a lot of good to teams defensively. Maybe experimentation with other sets for both Tornadus and Snorlax will change my mind on them, but they don't really feel that outlandish relative to their surroundings.

Fine: :abomasnow::braviary-hisui::bruxish::frosmoth::oricorio::scyther::toedscruel::toxicroak::venomoth:

Aside from Toxicroak and maybe Baile, the former PUBLs all either feel directly outclassed or don't have enough going for them to keep up with the tier. Like, maybe snow could be annoying again without Ninetales, but Fauros, Snorlax, Bronzong, and Hariyama all still exist. As for the other new additions here, they all seem healthy and give us more options for different roles. They'll probably shine more after one or two bans, but they're still solid as is.
 
I'm sorry if this is off topic, but it's so hard for more casual players/people who play less often like me to keep up with metagames that constantly shift like this. I guess it's by design due to the way DLCs are released and the way tiers shift and such, but it's really frustrating to spend a lot of time building 2 or 3 teams, use them for a week and then they're irrelevant suddenly. Does anyone else feel the same way
 
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nada e ninguem

formerly Kyuss
Just dropping the best spinner in the tier right now:




Toedscruel @ Assault Vest
Ability: Mycelium Might
Tera Type: Poison
EVs: 16 HP / 240 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Rapid Spin
- Acid Spray / Knock Off
- Giga Drain
- Earth Power


The choice of item is Assault Vest in order to not sacrify it's amazing speed and offensive capabilities while keeping it's special bulk. with EVs focused on Special Attack and Speed, and a Timid Nature to boost its pace further, surprisingly outspeeding almost the whole tier after one spin.
The choice between Acid Spray and Knock Off depends on your strategy: Acid Spray lowers Special Defense, forces a lot of switches making Toedscruel a bigger threat capable of snowballing weakened teams at the end and disrupt quiver dancers/calm minders, while Knock Off disrupts opponents by removing their items (i personally prefer Acid Spray). Giga Drain provides recovery, adding to Toedscruel's staying power, and Earth Power offers additional coverage while being an amazing STAB.
This build makes Toedscruel a versatile spinner that can pressure opponents, force switches, and potentially sweep weakened teams with its combination of speed, power, and durability while not sacrificing it's utility.
 


Tornadus @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Prankster
Shiny: Yes
Tera Type: Ground / Steel
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Bleakwind Storm / Hurricane
- Heat Wave
- Tera Blast / Focus Blast
- Nasty Plot

I've never really played this mon before but on paper it looks super good. It's one of the fastest things we have and it even has access to Nasty Plot.
Flying/Ground coverage is amazing, only resisted by a few - most notably Bronzong who doesn't appreciate Heat Wave neither.

It can also work as a rain setter/sweeper itself. However :Braviary: is certainly better if you ever think about using a Defiant/Bulk Up set.
 

ViZar

your toast is burned
is a Social Media Contributor Alumnus
Servus! I'd like to share some of my experiences in this tier and talk about some of the Pokemon that had the success rate for me so far.

:sv/tauros-paldea-blaze:
First, I'd like to talk about the Red Bull. Now, I don't want to talk about this one too much since I'd like to share all my experiences in full detail in the research thread and once that is up, I will make a follow up to this post. What I will mention is that this Pokemon is one of the best Pokemon in the tier. Fire/Fighting has great coverage for the tier and you can slot in a coverage move for any Pokemon that one paper checks you.

I haven't tried Scarf yet but I often find myself frustrated by its just okay speed stat of 100 and there were scenarios where Scarf would've dominated a game. So far, I've exclusively run Bulk Up with Trailblaze and Lum Berry and this set can win games outright. Trailblaze isn't a move you can necessarily spam and thus I think that an option like Stone Edge or Substitute are viable replacements for Trailblaze.

I also think that its Tera is quite flexible. Grass is nice against Ground- and Water-types and the extra damage you get on Trailblaze is quite valuable. Scyther being used as a revenge killer for non speed boost Bulls also made me consider running Tera Rock (or any Tera that resists Flying but Rock works with Stone Edge or Rock Slide) and there were situations where I could KO opposing Scythers and some Oricorios.

I also tried Cud Chew sets and I was gonna try Scarf and Defensive sets, but I will have to experiment with them more. Overall, I think that Blazeros is a good performer game to game and it can easily win you a game, but I think it can be a bit hard to get going, thus I'm not too convinced that it is broken. That opinion might change in a few days with more experimenting.
:lum-berry: Bulk Up :lum-berry:
Tauros-Paldea-Blaze @ Lum Berry
Ability: Intimidate
Tera Type: Grass / Rock
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Raging Bull
- Close Combat
- Trailblaze / Rock Slide / Substitute
- Bulk Up



:sv/snorlax:
Like with Tauros, I'm still experimenting with this one so I won't share much detail on it. One thing I will say that I'm kinda disappointed by it. I didn't expect to win games outright but I just think that it is really hard to get going. I exclusively run Curse sets, since of course that's the first set I'm trying out, but I honestly think that it isn't its best set.

It is really vunerable to status and even if it is going to Rest afterwards, you have two free turns to position you right and deal with it. RestTalk is an option but it is really passive and you either give up on coverage or set-up, both of which you really need. Thick Fat is nice to give it Ice and Fire "resistances" and with Tera Ghost, you can check Body Press Glastrier, but Immunity also has a niche since you can set-up on Poison-types without needing to Rest constantly.

I also run into Gluttony-Salac Berry-Belly Drum sets and they are quite good and some sets dropped Curse for Belly Drum but keep everything else from CurseLax sets. I'm also considering dropping set-up entirely for a 3 Attacks ChestoRest set that doesn't loose a lot of momentum and essentially gives you a second chance at life while checking huge threats like Hoopa, Tornadus, Braviary-H, Oricorio and more.

Snorlax is a good Pokemon, but its low speed and reliance on Rest for recovery really make it exploitable. I've had scenarios where Bronzong and Houndstone dealt with +4 Atk Lax' without breaking a sweat. It can honestly stay and I think it adds a lot to the tier.
:leftovers: CurseLax :leftovers:
Snorlax @ Leftovers
Ability: Thick Fat / Immunity
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Body Slam
- Earthquake
- Curse
- Rest



:sv/toxicroak:
I love this Pokemon. I honestly used it in the first place to have a Bruxish check, potential counter with Tera Dark and Dry Skin, and I never ran into a Bruxish ever since. I still think it is a solid Pokemon. I run both Swords Dance and Nasty Plot sets and Swords Dance is the better one in my opinion.

Nasty Plot can still work, but the issue comes from Vaccuum Wave as a priority move. It is relatively weak, even moreso when it comes from the lower Special Attack, and the issue rises from some of the best Pokemon that are faster than Toxicroak, mainly Scyther, Oricorio, Tornadus, Mesprit, Mismagius and Hoopa being resistant or immune to Vaccuum Wave.

Swords Dance is better in my opinion, since Close Combat, Poison Jab and Sucker Punch are more reliable and Sucker Punch is a better revenge killer tool. There are some Pokemon that still resist Sucker Punch, mainly Tauros-Blaze and Virizion, but the former can be dealt with via teammates and I never saw the latter lmao. In the case of Virizion, Tera Dark can also help against Zen Headbutt. It is a great game to game performer from experience and I love using it.
:life-orb: Swords Dance :life-orb:
Toxicroak @ Life Orb
Ability: Dry Skin
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Close Combat
- Poison Jab
- Sucker Punch
- Swords Dance

:life-orb: Nasty Plot :life-orb:
Toxicroak @ Life Orb
Ability: Dry Skin
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Sludge Wave
- Vacuum Wave
- Dark Pulse
- Nasty Plot



:sv/houndstone:
I think Houndstone is a flawed but solid Pokemon. First, its issues. It is really passive with defensive sets and its low speed and reliance on Leftovers and Protect make it vulnerable to Knock Off and Set-Up. However, I think it was really good traits. Acting as a check for Tauros-Blaze, Snorlax, Bruxish, Virizion and others.

These Pokemon have methods to deal with Houndstone but generally the consistant damage of Night Shade, Will-O-Wisp and Body Press is threatening to those. Clicking Will-O-Wisp into a switch and clicking Protect can give such a great position. A choiced Hoopa that takes two turns of Burn chip and clicks a move into a Protect gives the Houndstone player a good position. Obviously, this is a best case scenario. You can also use offensive Houndstone with either a Choice Band or 3/4 Attacks with Leftovers.

I wouldn't say Houndstone is a top tier Pokemon, because its flaws are really significant and with Hazard and Knock Off pressure, you can easily break through it, but playing with Houndstone aggressively, even with Defensive sets, can get you value a lot of the time.
:leftovers: Defensive :leftovers:
Houndstone @ Leftovers
Ability: Fluffy
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Impish Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Night Shade
- Body Press
- Will-O-Wisp
- Protect

:choice-band: Choice Band :choice-band:
Houndstone @ Choice Band
Ability: Fluffy
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 196 HP / 252 Atk / 60 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Poltergeist
- Shadow Sneak
- Body Press
- Play Rough

:leftovers: Offensive :leftovers:
Houndstone @ Leftovers
Ability: Fluffy
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk
Adamant Nature
- Poltergeist
- Shadow Sneak
- Play Rough / Body Press / Protect
- Will-O-Wisp / Body Press / Protect



:sv/skuntank:
I've run excusively Physically Defensive sets with FPlay/Knock/Toxic/Taunt with Rocky Helmet and it helps you deal with a lot of physical threats like Scyther, Hariyama, Snorlax, Toxicroak and more. Rocky Helmet and Aftermath deal massive damage to them, so that you can easily revenge kill them.

Unfortunately, it lacks utility outside of Knock Off, Chip and Taunt. Loosing Defog definitively sucks here and makes it limited in what it can do. However, I still believe that Skuntank has it in it. It already works well on offensive teams and with Scarf and Memento, it can allow a teammate like Tauros-Blaze, Scyther, Oricorio, Braviary-H and Articuno-G, among others, to set-up and potential win the game, or at the very least break holes in the oppossing team.
:rocky-helmet: Physically Defensive :rocky-helmet:
Skuntank @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Aftermath
Tera Type: Flying
EVs: 252 HP / 232 Def / 24 Spe
Impish Nature
- Foul Play
- Knock Off
- Toxic
- Taunt



Other Pokemon I'd like to talk about later
:sv/shaymin::sv/bronzong::sv/scyther::sv/tornadus:
 
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asa

is a Site Content Manageris a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Top Contributoris a Social Media Contributor Alumnus
PU Leader
:tauros-paldea-blaze::tornadus::braviary-hisui:
There's been a fair bit of discussion as of late surrounding Tauros-F, Tornadus, and Braviary-H. The former two have been controversial since they dropped to PU earlier this month, while the latter has still drawn some ire despite only catching on recently. The council is considering voting on these Pokemon once more, but we'd like to see what others have to say first. Feel free to share your thoughts on these Pokemon :)
 
Personally i think out of those 3 tornadus should prob go feels a bit hard to check alot of time bc its a powerhouse offensively with nasty plot and hits everything hard, is very fast and preety much requires you to outspeed it to beat it . Tauros-F while i think is debatable if is broken or not i think is alot less broken than it used to be bc sun got nerfed quite alot with drought , sleep ban imo , i feel like is quite hard to find set up opp sometimes , has a exploitable weakness with that bad spdef , ok speed , isnt hard to outspeed and finally i think the tier has good reliable answers to it im unsure for now if would be good to ban specially bc tierdrop soon. I think hisui brav needs a ban its just as powerful as tornadus imo even if is slow esper wing helps alot , it still hits rly hard arguably even more bc of tinted lens and can be a big problem rly quickly just like torn. Feel free to reply me if i missed something TLDR: Tornadus , H-brav feels alot harder to switch into than Tauros-f
 
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avarice

greedy for love
is a Tutor Alumnusis a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Top Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Top Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Past SCL Champion
RoAPL Champion
:tauros-paldea-blaze::tornadus::braviary-hisui:
There's been a fair bit of discussion as of late surrounding Tauros-F, Tornadus, and Braviary-H. The former two have been controversial since they dropped to PU earlier this month, while the latter has still drawn some ire despite only catching on recently. The council is considering voting on these Pokemon once more, but we'd like to see what others have to say first. Feel free to share your thoughts on these Pokemon :)
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I think Tauros (Paldea Blaze) is vote-worthy for sure. With Flying-types being so dominant currently, it may be surprising but we are in the Tera gen after all. I've run into fully defensive sets on the ladder which are kind of a waste. It's an amazing Pokemon with its classic Choice Scarf set and shines when you get speed control elsewhere. Choice Band deletes a lot of foes and doesn't particularly struggle to get in for me with its typing and Intimidate. Bulk Up is definitely best though as another setup sweeper that can get a lot of opportunities as it changes its defensive profile. With the defense boosts it can be a challenge to revenge-kill and Trailblaze speed boosts limit your options further. It can vary a bit with offensive CC or fatter Body Press variants too. While it kinda owned in Taka vs Beraldo for PUBD, it arguably could've been avoided by using Snorlax instead of going for Tornadus tie (not sure how much misses mattered but those were annoying for Beraldo too). Needing the aforementioned Trailblaze boost to properly sweep through opposing Pokemon like Tornadus and miscellanous Choice Scarf users hold it back enough for now tho imo, on top of the usual consequences for being Choice-locked.

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Tornadus has been a really fun mon for the tier for me. It can be scary with "basic" Hurricane / Heat Wave coverage and then whatever Knock Uturn or Nasty Plot and filler but it hasn't felt like too much personally. I appreciate the additional utility options it has with Tailwind and Weather variants. Also physical variants have seen some usage. I do not immediately recall any games in PUBD where it looked particularly menacing. This meta is just more offensive in general and adequate measures should be taken. There are a good amount of faster checks available like Floatzel and Sneasel to use so you are not reliant on a Choice Scarfer. Tailwind can circumvent this but Tornadus bulk is average at best. Not to say Tornadus is bad though. I think Choice sets should see more action and it may be harder to deal with later if the meta slows down. More success in PUBD would help its case even as a smaller sample size (cmon guys why 2 slots), as it's sitting at 20% WR with a mirror mu in the mix (read: no wins when on one side).

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Braviary (Hisui) has the strongest case to go to vote imo. At least in my games for PUBD (vs Feliburn and vs ishtar) it did pretty well. Against slower teams like Feliburn's it can be incredibly hard to deal with between Sheer Force and its solid coverage, and faster bulky offenses like ishtar's can falter once Braviary is able to get an Agility. However, using Braviary is not super straightforward. It is most easily comparable to another Sheer Force brother in that of Nidoking/Queen in UUs where there aren't really hard counters (ignoring Chansey/Blissey). The Sheer Force Pokemon are ultimately held back by their speed tiers and defensive profiles. In Braviary's case, Psychic/Flying typing can make it hard to pull off an Agility sweep without burning Tera or getting itself into priority range. This strains the Braivary user in the builder pretty heavily when not going full offense, making it kinda "even" for those worried about facing it when building. Defensively, there is not much besides Snorlax and your own Tera but "no hard counters" fails to be super convincing ban reasoning with a plethora of offensive checks available. Overall, I think it's fine but would be interested in seeing the Council's reasonings for one way or another on it.

tldr no bans maybe torn down the line
 
my (slightly informed) opinion on these mons:

:tauros-paldea-blaze: - I'm pretty biased as I love the redbull, but I think it's a healthy addition to the tier. It has a few too many checks to be considered oppressive offensively or as setup imo. It keeps other potentially annoying mons like snorlax and regirock in check. In Dani vs Ishtar, physdef sandslash took a banded raging bull extremely well, and after being knocked it felt subpar. I've even seen vikavolt live unboosted raging bulls with 0 defensive investment. My own games have made me feel like unless its setup sets run wild, a ban is hard to justify. While banning more flyings (which clearly is possible) might hurt this point, I think new drops will help the case for not banning the bull.

:tornadus: - i'm seeing people get more creative with tornadus sets (adrenaline orb acro is funny) beyond the initial wave of rainsetting I faced; I think it can can get to be a threat to most teams. However, from what I've witnessed in Piyush's PUBD game and my own experience, it's just frail enough to where offensive teams can blow through it. Faster mons, bulky setup, or prio from mons like lycanroc or bruxish/floatzel all seem to give it trouble or force tera. As things get more balanced, however, a ban might be needed if choice sets are making the guessing game putting too much pressure on teambuilding.

:braviary-hisui: - i think avarice undersold how well hraviary did in their game against ishtar. I have to agree that it's been hard to build around, especially managing to beat hazards/prio. The only set I'd consider "broken" is agility + sheer force, outspeeding the whole tier and ohkoing a good portion. This set struggles heavily with the previously mentioned threats, and while a ban could be considered, I don't think it's anything unbeatable as people adjust to the shifts. Specs is somewhat viable, but lacks speed and is locked into an average stab (balance mons like wochien, bronzong, or hwilfish blocking setup).

TLDR: they're fine for now, may need to reconsider based on how strong setup sets prove to be as things centralize.
 
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:tauros-paldea-blaze: Not quite sold on this being broken I think, there are plenty of mons faster than it that can revenge it, especially with all the strong flyings around (Or just like torn and scyther but those are pretty relevant mons to get revenged by) and while it can run tera rock decently I guess and that does flip those matchups around that just opens you up to being revenged by a bunch of new mons so offense can deal with it quite well. Balance has a much harder time with it since the only thing that resists its stab combo and actually has the bulk to not get 2 shot anyway is physdef baile, but I feel like its just weak enough to where generally bulky physdef walls like sandslash can deal with it decently, and balance should be running some sort of speed control that can revenge this anyway. Bulk up trailblaze is the only set that I feel like actually has a case for being broken but I don't really feel like its that hard to stop setting up and its very reliant on trailblaze to actually get to sweep properly.

:tornadus: This mons still so weird to me, it feels like it should be broken because these stats are insane, but in practice it's felt mostly fine? I don't really like how its biggest flaw is arguably its accuracy since relying on a mon missing is kinda dumb but its bulk also leaves it susceptible to getting revenged by scarfers/prio or the handful of naturally faster mons and defensively only having mono stab means there are answers, although that largely depends on the coverage it picks. I could easily see this becoming more of a problem later down the line but for now the results really don't support it.

:braviary-hisui: Yeah fuck this mon lol. Agility + SF can just take over games after a single turn which isn't super hard to get thanks to tera + its good natural bulk even with its crappy base typing. Offensively there are ways to deal with it like really fast scarfers (minimum of about ~105 base speed though so still kinda restrictive) and prio, but defensively the only real answer to this is snorlax, which to be fair is a really big deal but still. Not the most broken thing ever but I think its the most broken thing on the slate, its pretty hard to build around and there are ways around it but it also feels like it auto wins against some teams and makes building overall less fun and I'd rather just see it go.
 

asa

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Really don't like this mon, both in the builder and in-game. Fauros lacks true counters, even if Rocky Helmet and post-Tera Thick Fat users can considerably slow it down, and Intimidate combined with its bulk and defensive typing let it easily trade with 1-2 foes on average (regardless of playstyle). Bulk Up sets get a lot of opportunities to get going, even in rougher matchups, and are tough to revenge kill even after just one Trailblaze. They're also more customizable than it might seem, in terms of last moveslot, Tera, and even item. Choice Band just gets to click vs teams and faces little to no punishment for doing so unless the opponent has Oricorio or Dachsbun or switches a Ghost in on CC. Choice Scarf is fine, maybe a little too strong compared to other methods of speed control, but not necessarily problematic. Red Bull certainly has flaws; it's not that fast and it wears itself down quickly between hazards, Flare Blitz/Helmet recoil, and CC drops, both of which make it easy to offensively pressure/revenge kill. Also, as others have pointed out, offensive Flying- and Water-types are elite right now, which can also limit how often Fauros gets to play its game. Still, I think Fauros is a tad too overwhelming, and consistently so at that, and I'd definitely vote to ban it.

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Tornadus can be pretty punishing to play against. Outrunning almost every offensive threat while also having the capacity to shred balance is kinda messed up, and all of its sets are like this to some degree. Other than lacking reliable attacking moves, Tornadus comes with no real downsides offensively and often makes progress way too easily. Even its moves being inaccurate is a bit of a problem, since this can create a lot of "hax-y" endgame scenarios for both sides. That said, it's not as bad as Fauros for me. There's a decent number of faster Pokemon available, and all of them (as well as a lot of our better Choice Scarf users) can threaten heavy chip or an OHKO due to Tornadus's poor bulk. Torn also feels like one of those mons that's especially prone to getting Tera'd on and dying, again because of its bulk. Choice Specs and NP are both very good, but the former is incredibly prediction reliant (and misses enough to where it isn't even always rewarded for guessing right) and both have to be used carefully to avoid dying immediately. I don't think Torn's winrate from PUBD Week 1 tells the full story, and I'm probably going to vote ban on it, but I'm honestly 50/50 on it.

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Ngl, I don't think Braviary-H is broken at all. Agility + SFLO is definitely cheap and can break through teams pretty easily at times, but it feels like such a MU fish mon. To me, it's just a Tornadus sidegrade that really only works on hyper offense (unless you want a really awkward team) and does nothing pretty often. Brav-H's bad defensive typing, only decent bulk, and inability to hold Boots all give it a hard time consistently setting up, and it almost never sets up for free, which makes it easier to revenge kill with priority users/one of the few scarfers that outruns it at +2. I can agree that you have to play carefully against Brav-H (not letting Snorlax/Bronzong/Dudunsparce take too much chip, conserving your Tera), but it's not something you need to go out of your way to prep for in the builder. This is (likely) a no ban from me.
 
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ishtar

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So let's talk about these men!

:tauros-paldea-fire:
This thing is definitely one of the most influential mons in the tier right now, offering almost unparalleled offensive pressure while also being part of relevant defensive backbones against most threats it's able to outspeed with or without a Choice Scarf. I am very much so on the fence regarding Tauros. In one part, I reasonably believe that it's a powerhouse of a mon with almost no relevant counters, but the ways in which you deal with Tauros are as natural as they would be without the mon in the tier for the most part: Rocky helmet chip, defensive teras, status are some of the tools that Tauros checks utilize in order to keep it at bay without counting the multitude of Flying-types that give it trouble in the first place. These aren't tools that a player would instantly drop without Tauros, and I have yet to see people resorting to mons such as Dachsbun in order to really keep this thing in check. My main fear with Tauros is it's freedom of sets: Scarf, Band, BU sets have the peculiarity of being rather varied too with moves such as Will-O, TB, Sub. I worry about Tauros' ability to turn mus around due to this versatility on top of its already frankly obnoxious offensive pressure on regular teams. I also worry the tier might be worse off without it due to its ability to function as an offensive check to many otherwise obnoxious bulky sweepers such as Lax, Dudun, etc. For the time being I am DNB but I could see that opinion shifting.

:tornadus:
After voting ban on this before the tour started, I was initially under the impression that his needed way more precision than it was given in order to be truly broken. After all, Torn offers next to zero defensive utility and it sometimes SUCKS to use due to its awful inaccurate moves. This week I've changed my mind though, not due to any particular game or series I've played or seen. I simply think the amount of fast breakers in this tier is too much and covering for threats like Tornadus results in a really warping experience, in which the player with Tornadus out simply has an arresting position till it's either revenged or misses a move and dies. It's not a healthy threat to play around with Knock Off-U-Turn as well as NP sets, without even considering Tailwind, which not only turns Tornadus into a great late game mon but also supports other offensive threats for the most offensive archetypes within the tier. Tornadus is egregiously commanding, reminds me of those very manipulative boyfriends!

:braviary-hisui:
This mon is really cool! It's awkward as fuck to build with due to its rocks weakness and relies on tera somewhat against some matchups. Its also a sitting duck till you decide you wanna kill everything with it! Since week 1 when I used it (and managed to throw with it) I thought it was fairly borderline, but I did not expect its relevance in PUBD to be as high as it has been. Strangely enough, I don't think a single matchup with it has proven its brokenness to me, its a fairly brainy pick that requires decent building skills as well as good play. So you wanna keep it in the tier right, Innana? Hmmm not really, I don't think Braviary brings anything worthwhile to the current ecosystem of PU other than to oversaturate the problem of way too many stupid breakers. I'd be happy to give this thing a shot when we start getting the last drops, but I also worry exponentially about the creative ways in which people might utilize this mon to flip matchups in the upcoming weeks if we keep it. I've had a lot of ideas regarding this mon that I don't really wanna share due to the nature of the team tour, but I believe that we've only scratched the surface of what this mon can do, and I am so not excited about that prospect! I have no issue getting rid of this at this moment.

Thank you for reading! Is there anything else YOU think we should look at on this last week before shifts?
 

Bag of Trixx

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Howdy

:tauros-paldea: As someone getting back into the tier after a 2 year hiatus, PU's offensive dynamic is unlike anything before & yet, the tier still is posed with the same common theme of having a seemingly overwhelming & powerful Fire-type able to dictate the meta. Tauros is by no means an exception to this either. Having even more variety in sets than its predecessors & the other two powerhouses in question (Torn/Braviary), it also seems to have less & less counter play. Aside from the usual offensive checks or committing a Tera, there are decent-at-best defensive checks which can be worn down over time or defensive answers who seem too passive or create wide teambuilding gaps to be explored more thoroughly without a massive shift in how the meta plays as a whole (referring to Dachsbun which is actually a pretty good defensive option from what I've tested, as Ishtar alluded to earlier, but opened way too many holes in the builder). Tauros has so many options in sets (Band, Scarf, BU+Wisp, BU+Trailblaze, Body Press variants, etc) & can use either of its abilities in Intimidate or Cud Chew- whichever is better suited. Avarice brings a great point that the +1 Speed is essential to Tauros' success since the offensive Flying & Water-types can put a halt to the sweep (assuming Tauros can't Tera out of the situation), but in my opinion this is only a temporary solution for a permanent problem. I do agree w/ Ishtar that the tier may be worse off without Tauros initially, but to me, Tauros is on thin ice & is very close to far exceeding the current metagame. If I were voting, I'd ban the bull but would consider Tauros to be retested later on.

:tornadus: Tornadus, simply put, is a coin flip. However, that coin flip can decide a match because Tornadus is able to make progress unlike anything else in the tier with the exception of Tauros probably being neck & neck (in my opinion) with the genie in this regard. The HDB sets with Knock & U-Turn, STAB move & either Heat Wave/Grass Knot/Tailwind seem to be the most common, but "if it isn't broke, then don't fix it". Choice Specs & NP sets are definitely plausible, but asa brought up a good point that those sets are either too prediction reliant, could force a Tera out of the opponent, and/or must tread on waters carefully due to how limited Tornadus' defensive capabilities are in these situations- especially with having to rely on a move that seems to miss more than Hurricane ever did. Tornadus is one of many enablers for this much more fast-paced, offensive approach to the tier & even with having what seems like a chokehold on the metagame at times (Lax or bust), I don't currently believe Tornadus has been fully explored or exploited to its fullest potential. However, to play devil's advocate, Tornadus is an enabler for other enablers and that to me is its most alarming asset. I am interested to see what will happen if when the NP/Specs/Physical sets truly start to kick off, assuming Tornadus even makes it to that point. If I were voting, this is the only one of the three I'm more on the fence about. I'd more than likely vote abstain but wouldn't be surprised to see whichever direction this one heads.

:braviary-hisui: As much as I would love to see Braviary-H leave the tier simply because I hate having to consider this in the builder due to how alarming its potential is, I don't currently believe it's as much of an issue as the aforementioned threats. Although you have to consider Braviary-H, its checks are almost identical to Tornadus which every team should fear already & should already have answers constructed on the team in the first place. Not saying that it's easier said than done because to its credit, Braviary-H comes close to not stopping when it does actually start, but to get that ball rolling usually requires a good amount of effort not only in the gameplay but in the builder as well. Braviary-H has decent bulk so it can setup its Agility/CM, but not being able to ignore hazards to get the biggest bang for your buck w/ SFLO & not being as freeing as a teammate like Tornadus require a lot more understanding of the mon to unleash its fullest potential. Braviary-H is probably on the DNB side for me, but I wouldn't be upset to see it leave the tier once it gets the chance to show off a lot more if Tornadus needs a replacement or if we learn that the teams that Braviary-H has already been showcased on seem to pick up a lot more to the point where it becomes a problem & its defensive checks don't cut it anymore.

TL;DR- Ban the bull. Coin flip on Torn. Hate to see you go but love to watch you leave on Braviary-H.
 

asa

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Ninetales moved from PU to NU

Bastiodon moved from NU to PU
Decidueye-Hisui moved from NU to PU
Electivire moved from NU to PU
Exeggutor-Alola moved from NU to PU
Grafaiai moved from NU to PU
Jolteon moved from NU to PU
Palossand moved from NU to PU
Rampardos moved from NU to PU
Salazzle moved from NU to PU
Uxie moved from NU to PU
Whimsicott moved from NU to PU

Some pretty crazy drops here (looking at you Jolteon and Salazzle). We didn't get a lot of defensive Pokemon, but there's potential in the few that we received, especially Palossand and Uxie. There's a couple of interesting offensive options we gained though, even outside of the ones that are probably broken. Share your thoughts on them and anything else below!
 
Just here to point out how stupid Regirock is.

You don't even need any Defence investment for him to deal crazy amounts of damage with Body Press and tank every physical hit even after a single Curse boost.
Just go max HP and SpDef investment to patch up what holes it can't itself. Tera Fighting skyrockets that damage potential and it's a really good defensive tera for it as well. Best answer to that is probably Braviary-Hisui but even that gets clobbered by Stone Edge which I favour over Sleep Talk. It's one of the few mons that can afford to just sit there and Rest with Leftovers. Even without Light Clay if screens are up for a few turns while it sets up that's all it needs.

I can also see Grafaiai becoming a problem with its Prankster shenanigans.
 

Melt Gibson

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here are my thoughts on the new mons after a little laddering :)

:pmd/jolteon: Jolteon
I'm actually a lot less sold on this being busted than I thought I would be! 110 SpA and 130 Speed is huge on paper, but there's no one Tera Blast type that covers everything that would prospectively check you (Grounds, Grasses, Lanturn). Alluring Voice is neat since a lot of our Grass-types are weak to Fairy, but relying on an 80 BP coverage move unboosted just doesn't cut it, especially when you're trying to hit shit like Wo-Chien. I think SubCM 2a is the way to go for now just because of how many awkward situations pivot Jolt gets itself into. Still insanely fast and decently strong enough that Thunderbolt is a real threat if you don't have some sort of immunity though.

:pmd/salazzle: Salazzle
Broken as shit LOL, SubTox sets are really annoying since the only viable Infiltrator mon we have is Whimsicott, which is slower than Salazzle and has to run Psychic to hit it. There's also a lot less sound moves now than there used to be: Boomburst Dudunsparce, Hyper Voice Arboliva, and the odd Psychic Noise are all you really have, and most of the users for these get gimped by Salazzle anyway or are at real danger if it turns out to be Nasty Plot instead. 117 Speed is plenty enough, only coming in under Sceptile, Jolteon, and Electrode-H unboosted, and is much more threatening paired with 111 SpA, an insanely good offensive typing, Nasty Plot, and a dragon's hoard of utility options in Knock Off, Encore, Taunt, and unblockable Toxics. The only consistent checks I've seen to a well-played Salazzle are Bruxish and Floatzel, simply because Salazzle is so piss poor defensively that Scarf Bruxish or Aqua Jet from either of the two absolutely shreds it. Still, do not like how this thing plays out, do not like how it can realistically go one for six, do not think it's healthy for the meta.

:pmd/whimsicott: Whimsicott
God, that 116 Speed feels like a slap in the face. Having a Fairy is great though, especially one with so much utility and some sort of offensive presence. Probably going to do the same shit it did in SS, SubSeed does look kinda nice though since Moonblast covers a lot of the other Grasses. Hurricane may be worth it? idk.
 

ishtar

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Hi, PU used people! We will be holding a vote during the weekend that will cover Jolteon and Salazzle as well as possibly the option of reintroducing some PUBL mons. Let us know what you think about the current meta and your thoughts on this development! Is there something else that should be included on the slate? What is and isn't broken? Have you found any sneaky underrated threat? Are we corrupt or simply misguided? Give us your thoughts ideally before the weekend, and thank you!
 
I don't think Jolteon is broken tbh, it's been sorta underwhelming in the little bit I've used it. I'd like to see Pauros and Torn reintroduced either this month or April, since I feel like they were both sorta barely broken last month and would probably scale more appropriately to the rest of the tier with this and next months drops together.
 
Jolt's fine, I've not had problems with it both when re-getting back into PU proper and when trying to spam Grafaiai for the testing week. Bunch of glue mons I run all the time either completely stuff it (AV Houndstone once again keeping the entire tier in check) or can handle a +1 Jolt and OHKO it/do huge damage back (Evio Sneasel-H, Psyshock Farig)

Salazzle i hate, i dont like it, Toxic is free on everything and NP means it snowballs infinitely faster than Jolt ever could. Worse speed tier than Jolt means little when then only things that beat Lazzle are Electrode-Hisui and... Jolteon itself. I tried using SubNP Salac earlier, committed highway robbery. AV Houndstone also can't handle it, so the one gluemon I use on every team for special walls.... doesn't work. If it stayed I'd adapt better, but i dont like thinking.

If i was good I'd actually back up those claims with replays or w.e. but hey



also grafaiai deserves to go in S+ tier, thank you.
 

Hera

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jolt and salaz are fine. jolt is a good pivot but can't beat all of grasses/ground/lanturn in one set apart from maybe sub cm tera, which just ends up losing to stuff like muk. there's just so many special walls and natural counterplay in the tier that it ends up not being remotely broken. i'm not seeing where the salaz hate is coming from either. it usually just does 40 into your lax/dudun/hari/other spdef wall and then dies. i've tried subtox encore too and it feels usable but hates rocks and is way too mu fishy. maybe a lack of offensive counterplay would be an issue if we didn't already have a ton of faster mons, some introduced in the same shift salaz was. both of these mons seem completely balanced to me.

scyther is something i've talked about and i'd like for it to be added to the slate. i dislike how it basically has no long term checks and usually good physdef stuff like weez, sanda, and palo all get ohkoed by +2 dwb after a small amount of chip, and the few things that look great into sycther either get teraed on (+2 tera fighting cc is a roll in your favor to ohko max max regirock after rocks) or uturned on (houndstone). this + a knocker that baits in physdef stuff breaks everything. and also it can be trailblaze and outspeed your scarfer which is really cool.

re: publ mons either don't free any of them or free all but zoro (illusion inheritly uncompetitive on a half decent mon and all that stuff), the others i don't really care about and could maybe not be broken.
 
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